Gunner tweaks

[eshu]

sounds like a simple l2p issue.

How's that for an answer?

[Porrfilm]

Ok, lets say you hit a sleep, now gunner starts to cast an execute right after it lands and harbinger will wait 0.55s first and then starts casting shadow bolt (so they will hit at the same time). Now, the slept target has 2 teammates and they have 1.65s time after the sleep to stop it (assuming gunner starts execute right after sleep). And yes, that is a lot of time in a fast paced game like blc, you're not just going to sit around doing nothing while they are channeling their spells. You have 3 good options to stop it.

1. Interrupt gunner
2. Interrupt harb
3. Give a support ability to the slept target (most comps got at least one of those)

And believe it or not, that is not easy at all to pull off. We have tried it a lot of times but have successfully done it only a dozen times in hundreds of games, and almost never against a high team.

Also the combos you were comparing, first of all the other one is a 3-man combo and the other one is a 2-man combo.
Second of all, volcano is 0.4s cast and it's an aoe so you can't bodyblock it or reflect it back and hardly have enough time to go interrupt igniter before he finishes casting volcano.

There's 2 problems with this, first of all is positioning, we can't assume both teams are just standing at equal distance facing eachother we must assume there's some sort of distance between the now sleeping bloodline and the rest of his team, gunner should be even further away this puts a GREAT distance to cover in 1.65 seconds while still having enough time to actually cancel it before it goes off. Even more so if the harb decides it's better to just block the enemy team from interrupting the gunner. Second is time, even though as you say 1.65 seconds can feel like an eternity for the person casting execute, the people that have to interrupt it have to first of all register that it has been activated (not sure when the sound goes off) secondly locate him (if in invis with a broken 3d sound thats a hassle) thirdly get to him (he can be as much as 150 away from the sleeping target) fourth interrupt it, now this might seem like a pointless point but not all bloodlines has the possibility of easily cancelling an execute after steps 1-3. If we assume it's a cooperative attack, going for harb to decrease the damage to its minimum might be a better choice especially if gunner is in invis, when you then pounce on the harb channeling shadow bolt, you interrupt it, get hit with execute in back and is locked in a melee fight vs harb without your beloved cc and space because you had to use that to get there.

I wrote and deleted SEVERAL scenarios here, I just thought all of them seemed a bit unrealistic and even if it may be so the main point of it all is the same, it is not as easy as you make it sound anyway. With some unlucky timing you can even end up tanking all of it because the cc doesnt hit on time.

[Sapador]

Gunner has highest range and is just untouchable anyway, it kills agression and kills the game a bit for me. Id rather have rushdown comps with noskillers getting a ton of wins than playing against your silly run away style and as soon as you get a max range lucky grip collapse on one. It's not punishing mistakes it's punishing trying to do anything.
And ofc we can punish your mistakes, but you just win when both sides dont make any kind of bigger mistakes. (considering we dont have a gunner as well ^^)

And yes im exaggerating a bit but I think gunners design doesnt fit this game in any way and should be changed.
Every other ranged bloodline has some kind of skillshot to get away from melees that can be dodged or countered in some way by said melees to basically "outplay them" but gunner has nothing, you cant dodge e slow, space stun, or stealth. It's boring is boring as *peeeeep* that's why I have most fun in this game when gunner isn't viable (and the servers are somwhat stable haha) and im pretty sure I'm not the only one who thinks that way. I'm maybe one of the big haters of gunner out there but a lot of players arent happy with that playtsyle.

[jouho]

Ok, lets say you hit a sleep, now gunner starts to cast an execute right after it lands and harbinger will wait 0.55s first and then starts casting shadow bolt (so they will hit at the same time). Now, the slept target has 2 teammates and they have 1.65s time after the sleep to stop it (assuming gunner starts execute right after sleep). And yes, that is a lot of time in a fast paced game like blc, you're not just going to sit around doing nothing while they are channeling their spells. You have 3 good options to stop it.

1. Interrupt gunner
2. Interrupt harb
3. Give a support ability to the slept target (most comps got at least one of those)

And believe it or not, that is not easy at all to pull off. We have tried it a lot of times but have successfully done it only a dozen times in hundreds of games, and almost never against a high team.

Also the combos you were comparing, first of all the other one is a 3-man combo and the other one is a 2-man combo.
Second of all, volcano is 0.4s cast and it's an aoe so you can't bodyblock it or reflect it back and hardly have enough time to go interrupt igniter before he finishes casting volcano.

Exactly what I was going to say when I read the previous posts.
I'll also add that every healer(except astro) has something to give to their team mate who happens to get sleeped and there is damage coming his way. Barrier, bloodshield, grimgol's gate, totem, dispel, chrono and otherside or even pomp m2.
Plus, half of the non-healers have something to either dispel the sleep from the target or greatly reduce the incoming dmg with a shield. If you stack these effects, all of the dmg may be absorbed and in some situations reflected back or healed the target. Sometimes just one is enough for this.
Those were only the abilities you can give directly to the team mate who got sleeped. There are still left a lot of stuff you can, if you are able to, stop the damaging abilities ever going off with. Fears/incaps/knockbacks/spellblocks. Every bloodline has something.
And there is also medallions which dispel everything from you when you get for example sleeped. There are plenty of ways to escape if you happen to get hit by a sleep, which still can be dodged in the first place.

@sapador
How does gunner E differ from igniter E as hitting it ? By this I mean, how can't you dodge gunner E if you can dodge igniter E ? And why is only igniter E skillshot and gunner's isn't ? Gunner's stealth isn't that reliable escape ability. You can still get hit by a lot of stuff, of which easiest are whirling blade or meat and eat. That's when team mates need to help or you'll in big trouble.

[Mithy]

Gunner has highest range and is just untouchable anyway, it kills agression and kills the game a bit for me. Id rather have rushdown comps with noskillers getting a ton of wins than playing against your silly run away style and as soon as you get a max range lucky grip collapse on one. It's not punishing mistakes it's punishing trying to do anything.
And ofc we can punish your mistakes, but you just win when both sides dont make any kind of bigger mistakes. (considering we dont have a gunner as well ^^)

And yes im exaggerating a bit but I think gunners design doesnt fit this game in any way and should be changed.
Every other ranged bloodline has some kind of skillshot to get away from melees that can be dodged or countered in some way by said melees to basically "outplay them" but gunner has nothing, you cant dodge e slow, space stun, or stealth. It's boring is boring as *peeeeep* that's why I have most fun in this game when gunner isn't viable (and the servers are somwhat stable haha) and im pretty sure I'm not the only one who thinks that way. I'm maybe one of the big haters of gunner out there but a lot of players arent happy with that playtsyle.

Grips are just boring on melee bloodlines. With any sort of decent coordination you can do at least 50% of someones hp in one harb grip. Gunner isn't as OP as harb.

[Porrfilm]

Spoiler: show

Ok, lets say you hit a sleep, now gunner starts to cast an execute right after it lands and harbinger will wait 0.55s first and then starts casting shadow bolt (so they will hit at the same time). Now, the slept target has 2 teammates and they have 1.65s time after the sleep to stop it (assuming gunner starts execute right after sleep). And yes, that is a lot of time in a fast paced game like blc, you're not just going to sit around doing nothing while they are channeling their spells. You have 3 good options to stop it.

1. Interrupt gunner
2. Interrupt harb
3. Give a support ability to the slept target (most comps got at least one of those)

And believe it or not, that is not easy at all to pull off. We have tried it a lot of times but have successfully done it only a dozen times in hundreds of games, and almost never against a high team.

Also the combos you were comparing, first of all the other one is a 3-man combo and the other one is a 2-man combo.
Second of all, volcano is 0.4s cast and it's an aoe so you can't bodyblock it or reflect it back and hardly have enough time to go interrupt igniter before he finishes casting volcano.

Exactly what I was going to say when I read the previous posts.
I'll also add that every healer(except astro) has something to give to their team mate who happens to get sleeped and there is damage coming his way. Barrier, bloodshield, grimgol's gate, totem, dispel, chrono and otherside or even pomp m2.
Plus, half of the non-healers have something to either dispel the sleep from the target or greatly reduce the incoming dmg with a shield. If you stack these effects, all of the dmg may be absorbed and in some situations reflected back or healed the target. Sometimes just one is enough for this.
Those were only the abilities you can give directly to the team mate who got sleeped. There are still left a lot of stuff you can, if you are able to, stop the damaging abilities ever going off with. Fears/incaps/knockbacks/spellblocks. Every bloodline has something.
And there is also medallions which dispel everything from you when you get for example sleeped. There are plenty of ways to escape if you happen to get hit by a sleep, which still can be dodged in the first place.

@sapador
How does gunner E differ from igniter E as hitting it ? By this I mean, how can't you dodge gunner E if you can dodge igniter E ? And why is only igniter E skillshot and gunner's isn't ? Gunner's stealth isn't that reliable escape ability. You can still get hit by a lot of stuff, of which easiest are whirling blade or meat and eat. That's when team mates need to help or you'll in big trouble.

So let me get this straight, you're saying, if a person on your team is hit by a cc, you have to waste outs as to save him from a nuke? That's fine I mean that needs to be done virtually always or oh wait, only when playing against 2 heroes with attacks that do 350+ dmg EACH. No matter how many spells you've got that CAN help, they need to be avaiable when it all goes down you need to be IN RANGE of throwing it (meaning the person asleep can ahve gotten bad positioning and be far away or the gunner / harb is standing way beyond the sleeping ally) AND if you then throw your outs to help your teammate you now have to fight HARBINGER and GUNNER without your outs.

Also for the record I don't think sapador meant you can dodge igniter e seeing as it is the same as gunner e only pushes you back, which is what I mean with you nitpicking instead of writing something actually useful. I get that you don't consider stealth a reliable out because you at times get hit by things but as soon as you go invis it's as if you've blinded the entire enemy team, they'll be throwing stuff into the dark. Yes there are attacks with big enough aoe to have a good enough chance of hitting but if you pull something cheeky like running right past them there's no way they'll hit and being able to shoot while in stealth is just ridiculous, I met a gunner today pulling off 600+ damage from stealth 3 m1s and an E and he was standing so close to me the projectiles weren't visible (inb4 glutton is big and fat).

[Entarion]

Wennberg, how exactly am I using faulty numbers? Literally took the damage from the tooltips and I'm not getting uber defensive, jsut simply stating that the combo you're putting in there is something that you'll close to never see in an actual game versus equally footed teams and the whole point of my example with sm/iggy is to just show you that there are other combos that are way easier to pull off that do around the same amount of damage(including m1s which are free to follow up after volcano, yes).

I'm done discussing this btw, I'll just accept the fact that I won't be able to change your opinion, and I agree to disagree with you.

Spoiler: show

And I'm pretty sure you're not interpreting my behaviour right, I'm in no way trying to act *peeeeep* nor do I think that me and or my team is better than everyone, sorry if that's the case it is not intended =)

[Wennberg]

Wennberg, how exactly am I using faulty numbers?

[quote"Entarion"]You can also easily combo an m1 from both dps right off it, resulting in way more damage with 1 single combo that is harder to avoid.[/quote]

[mulkmulkmulk]

Grips are just boring on melee bloodlines. With any sort of decent coordination you can do at least 50% of someones hp in one harb grip. Gunner isn't as OP as harb.

This was a good one. I made a collection of it:

Code: Select all

Grips are just boring on melee bloodlines.  With any sort of decent coordination you can do at least 50% of someones hp in one harb grip.  Gunner isn't as OP as glutton.

Grip are just boring on melee bloodlines.  With any sort of decent coordination you can do at least 50% of someones hp in one thorn pull.  Gunner isn't as OP as thorn.

Grips are just boring on  ranged bloodlines.  With any sort of decent coordination you can do at least 50% of someones hp in one engi tractor.  Gunner isn't as OP as engi.

Grips are just boring on melee bloodlines.  With any sort of decent coordination you can do at least 50% of someones hp in one sm javelin.  Gunner isn't as OP as sm.

Swaps are also boring on a bloodlines.  With any sort of decent coordination you can do at least 50% of someones hp in one pomp swap.  Gunner isn't as OP as pomp.

Swaps are also boring on a bloodlines.  With any sort of decent coordination you can do at least 50% of someones hp in one grim gate.  Gunner isn't as OP as grim.

Incaps are very *peeeeep* boring on a every single bloodline. With any sort of decent coordination you can do at least 50% of someones hp in one stun ability. Gunner isn't as OP as this text


Yeah buddy just has best decent coordination atm when the servers are shit and lot's of good players are lagging.
imo harb is just tad hard to kill with my *peeeeep* leafs and vines but that's np. Derail conversation!

[Mithy]

You are totally missing the point baddy. A melee should have to go in to do pressure or its going be low risk high reward. The only true way to punish a harb is for him to use space and he never needs to use it.

[mulkmulkmulk]

You are totally missing the point baddy. A melee should have to go in to do pressure or its going be low risk high reward. The only true way to punish a harb is for him to use space and he never needs to use it.

indeed !
I thought you were stuck on the dmg part like rest of the durrpadirrpas.

[Prestoqt]

i don't understand why jouho is trying so hard to defend gunner, it's clearly broken... same with harb, EVERYONE is complaining about it and it's nothing to do with the fact you are dominating, the truth is you are dominating cause your the only team playing at the moment.

i complain more when a shit tier team beats me playing harb gunner because none of my team can go in vs that shit.

you can tell me you don't turtle all you want but the fact of the matter is you can't pass the wall that is harb gunner so even if the harb gunner is offensive there is still a wall you can't pass.


the things i don't like about it is:
hemo, it has 0 downtime and is just plain dumb, prety much makes missing impossible because you are so slowed
execute, still does too much damage
blind, too easy to hit

[BobLoblaww]

i don't understand why jouho is trying so hard to defend gunner, it's clearly broken... same with harb, EVERYONE is complaining about it and it's nothing to do with the fact you are dominating, the truth is you are dominating cause your the only team playing at the moment.

A few loudmouths don't account for the entire population.

[Endzweck]

ITT: We want to nerf Gunner and Harbringer because we can't beat YEAH BUDDY.
Maybe throw in another nerf for Alchemist just because as well.