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Gunner tweaks

Bloodline discussions concerning the ranged damage archetype.

Gunner tweaks

Postby Porrfilm » [OP] » 18 Feb 2012 22:25

This topic will focus on gunner but also a sidenote on the gunner harb comp that YEAH BUDDY and a lot of other teams have adapted.

Tweaks to gunner: FIX EXECUTE (It's about time that spells gets the proper nerf) I saw in another thread that mrX pointed out that the 3d sound in this game isn't working as it suppose to and I believe it is only its focused on the character not on the view point of the player (this on the other hand is just a theory). A spell that can be used while invisible with as much damage as any ult in the game and from the latest patch even less cast time I consider that probably the weirdest spell ever added to the game, along with shadow bolt and enlarge. Secondly Rocket Jump, why should that spell stun AND do more dmg than most of the other spaces in the game, what it also does is bring him WAY out of harms way so its would still be a good out even if it didnt do as much dmg as it currently does (in an aoe with stun). Third Disabling shot, the fact that this spell has a lower cast time than his m1 has recharge time (0,3 vs 0,6) if you ask me for a spellblock doing 160dmg with REALLY fast projectile speed to have that short of a cast time is ridiculous and the added sound just made me laugh ONLY people with INSTANT outs can possibly ever hope to react to that, no human has a reaction time of 0.1 seconds and so the 0.2 cast time outs wont make it they will only get spellblocked because you react to the sound too late, also the spellblock system needs to be reworked as it can interrupt spells already in motion that should not be, as I see it spellblock should apply when you PRESS a spell not AFTER you have initiated the spell.

Side note on gunner harb pomp combo: This combo needs to be nerfed as their zoning play and 2 high dmg long range spells own the game atm. When a game is started meeting gunner / harb they move slowly forward starting / cancelling execute and shadow bolt, here you have 2 options either move backwards or try to dodge, any skilled player would say that trying to dodge an execute from the left and a shadow bolt from the right is a virtually impossible task so moving backwards it is, then 2 HUUGE AOE disables, if you go for harb: gunner will eat you up from a distance with 500dmg executes and spellblocks while harb takes no dmg due to pomp dmg reduction from heal and his self heal. If you try to pressure the gunner, harb can easily keep up with a healer as his self heal keeps him from dropping overtime, while gunenr AND pomp both each have a spellblock with SUPER fast cast time no hero can possibly do any pressuring against it. If you do manage to put out some pressure there is rocket jump stun and 2 phase outs (otherside and nether shift). Thirdly pomp swap into execute + shadow botl does almost 1k dmg, this is really undeserving for using spells with no energy cost and low cooldown. Cant fit anymore because 4000 word limit but do give me your thoughts on this.
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Re: Gunner tweaks

Postby Amazon » 19 Feb 2012 00:20

Healer + Harb + ranged that synergize are super strong right now, because of harbinger ability to fullfill almost any role - has good zoning, selfhealing and damage. Gunner happens to be incredibly strong and synergize well with harb and pomp (many spell blocks/silences, execute+shadowbolt, a grip, 2 x othersides basically..)

Gunner needs some tweaks; lower damage on execute, lower area and damage on rocket jump, but lower CD (gunner has many high CDs), lower CD on stealth but breaks after any damage is done. I think this would balance gunner more, and make him less turtly with lower CDs.

Harb needs a nerf to selfhealing and more mobility to compensate. Less tanky :)
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Re: Gunner tweaks

Postby jouho » 19 Feb 2012 00:35

This is like 4th thread by amazon and his angry buddies. Just go read the previous ones and stop posting the same nonsense all over again. Of course you will lose games if you lack team work and you are using the wrong tactics. Wouldn't make sense if you won games like that would it?
Yes, it is easier to come complain on forums as soon as you lose. Maybe the reason is on your end why you keep losing. 4Kings had no problem giving us trouble with glutton. Actually, gaz can't even play harb vs them because with it we have close to no chance of winning.
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Re: Gunner tweaks

Postby Okonkwo » 19 Feb 2012 00:38

I don't think there is a single point in the history of BLC that i've found a problem with execute
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Re: Gunner tweaks

Postby Porrfilm » [OP] » 19 Feb 2012 01:01

jouho wrote:This is like 4th thread by amazon and his angry buddies. Just go read the previous ones and stop posting the same nonsense all over again. Of course you will lose games if you lack team work and you are using the wrong tactics. Wouldn't make sense if you won games like that would it?
Yes, it is easier to come complain on forums as soon as you lose. Maybe the reason is on your end why you keep losing. 4Kings had no problem giving us trouble with glutton. Actually, gaz can't even play harb vs them because with it we have close to no chance of winning.


This is the 4th thread because there was a need for a 4th thread and I would LOOOOVE for Zab to come in and show me how he did that, playing wrong? against that kind of zoning there is no playing, you guys are awesome theres no denying that but the combo is too strong. If it were to happen to be true that glutton does work against gunner harb, johou I encourage you actually no, I beg of you to teach me how to play against it because as is now I get out 1k dmg while tanking 3 spellblocks, shadow bolt + execute and dead, which should indicate I'm doing something wrong so please, do teach me.

Amazon, I agree that with lower cds to compensate for the nerfs on gunners other spells it would make the hero more balanced and also that invis breaks after firing, it makes no sense that gunner can fire 2m1s + a disabling shot before stealth breaking.
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Re: Gunner tweaks

Postby jouho » 19 Feb 2012 01:25

There was a g20 glutton yesterday who gave us big trouble. Most trouble a team have given us for a long time. I have no idea how he did it but he was damn good. Not gonna tell you how to play your bl because I'm not really the guy to do that.
As a glutton you should have the easiest time ever against stealth. Meat and eat covers like the whole possible area where a gunner could be after you space on him. That his is ridiculously good vs stealth. I'm just asking you to not come complain on forums about stuff that isn't true. It can all be sorted out with learning and adapting.
And hey, everyone is able to play every bloodline. Why don't you pick gunner and get to the top in no time if is that overpowered?
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Re: Gunner tweaks

Postby Wennberg » 19 Feb 2012 01:33

jouho wrote:It can all be sorted out with learning and adapting.
And hey, everyone is able to play every bloodline.


So seeking for perfection was completely fair then? They were just the best and no one was able to outplay them?

P.S. This wasn't about your skill level just the way you defend your comp. If every thing was about learning and adapting then we wouldn't need balance patches since well, l2p or pick it yourself.
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Re: Gunner tweaks

Postby Amazon » 19 Feb 2012 01:53

jouho wrote: Why don't you pick gunner and get to the top in no time if is that overpowered?


Easy to play doesn't equal overpowered. Balance is made based on how strong a bloodline or ability potentially is. Fact is that gunner relies heavily on aim, hence why a lot of players don't do very well with it.
Last edited by Amazon on 20 Feb 2012 05:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gunner tweaks

Postby jouho » 19 Feb 2012 01:55

Wennberg wrote:So seeking for perfection was completely fair then? They were just the best and no one was able to outplay them?

P.S. This wasn't about your skill level just the way you defend your comp. If every thing was about learning and adapting then we wouldn't need balance patches since well, l2p or pick it yourself.


Its a bit different now. There has been times when getting 2 same bloodlines in a team gave you a superior comp. I have always been against allowing 2 same archetype in a team. But they were the best seekers in the game back then. No one managed to do the same and even they had to dodge good teams to get high rating. Seeker was released way too strong, everyone can agree with that. Same has happened with almost every new bloodline after release of the game.
Gunner in other hand has been pretty much the same for almost 2 years now. Yes, a lot of numbers have been nerfed but the basic concept is the same. Same goes for whole our comp. Nothing significant has gotten buffed for a loooong time. Its the other way around, a lot have been nerfed. The comp has been around for so long time. How can it be suddenly op? Imo it's just lack of competition so it might seem too powerful. Only if there were other top teams playing, it would be much different. At the moment, it sure is l2p issue.

And for amazon, every bloodline relies on aiming. If you hit all your shit, you are godlike with any bloodline. If you miss, like you do, you won't do well. Simple as that. Gunner relies on aiming a lot more than many others. This game is all about hitting and dodging. Learn to hit and learn to dodge and you have success with any bloodline. There is a reason why a top player can beat you with any bloodline(no not me).
You are trying to make balance suggestions based on no competition on ladder. Isn't that exactly against what you said? You are comparing bloodlines together which are played by different level players, therefore your opinions are twisted and mean nothing.
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Re: Gunner tweaks

Postby Amazon » 19 Feb 2012 02:00

Dlacour and khyrez dominated with it back in the day.
Last edited by Amazon on 20 Feb 2012 05:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gunner tweaks

Postby Entarion » 19 Feb 2012 02:05

Just now he was quite constructive and made good points, all you came up with was that? Proving once again how pointless it is to argue with you :D
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Re: Gunner tweaks

Postby XelioSphere » 19 Feb 2012 04:07

Amazon wrote:Healer + Harb + ranged that synergize are super strong right now, because of harbinger ability to fullfill almost any role - has good zoning, selfhealing and damage. Gunner happens to be incredibly strong and synergize well with harb and pomp (many spell blocks/silences, execute+shadowbolt, a grip, 2 x othersides basically..)

Gunner needs some tweaks; lower damage on execute, lower area and damage on rocket jump, but lower CD (gunner has many high CDs), lower CD on stealth but breaks after any damage is done. I think this would balance gunner more, and make him less turtly with lower CDs.



Harb needs a nerf to selfhealing and more mobility to compensate. Less tanky :)

^ Not true not all gunner+harb+whateverhealer can actually be viable, back in the day

We played that combo against something like vanguard+glutton and anyhealer and pretty much got facepalmed...

Dude, do you play gunner? You know its not easy bloodline to play, as luck would have you, the only real reposition you have comes from the damn rocket jump. I think over the year the skill cap on gunner has increased a lot to say the least. And it is true the gunner bloodline is not easy to play, another story is that once the gunner hp goes down, you can not get heals, almost all the dmg you do you are dealt back because you are vulnerable to all kinds of ataks,

also gunner is extremely slow to move on base speed... these things make gunner extremely unique... 1v1 gunner will be killed by everyone. its when you are distracted and do not pay attention to what gunner does is when you get butt hurt...
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Re: Gunner tweaks

Postby trickshot » 19 Feb 2012 11:25

Porrfilm wrote:Cant fit anymore because 4000 word limit but do give me your thoughts on this.

Your post in short:
"Gunner teams beat us over and over, cause me and Amazon are bad, we don't want to get better, we try the butthurt way of dealing with lack of skill, we go to the forums and ask MrX to spend some tears aswell!"


Too bad SLS won't listen... :cry:
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Re: Gunner tweaks

Postby JHBZ » 19 Feb 2012 11:32

This kind of topic again? In my opinion, people doesn't know how to play against gunners really. I'm not pro but when I play with gunner, like 90% of time I can do whatever I like because no one focuses me. If you let gunner alone, she will be completely beast. I would definitely say that its l2p issue.
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Re: Gunner tweaks

Postby Porrfilm » [OP] » 19 Feb 2012 11:42

I am unsure how to respond to all the responses on this thread without breaking the 4000 word limit xD not used to this sort of discussion but, the flaming you have all been participating in does not belong in the balance discussion, WHY I decided to make this post does not belong either, discussion on the changes is what belong in this thread.

It is true that gunner is a hard bloodline to play I've tried before unsuccessfully to learn gunner. As Amazon said balance is balance, just because a hero is harder to play does not mean that it gets to be stronger than other bloodlines. As for the part where someone said that it's only when you don't pay attention to gunner that you get hurt that is for the most part true, I agree with you BUT when played with a pomp and a harb you can't focus the gunner because of what I said above the double spellblock and 2 high yield attacks that you get from 2 sides all the time, I do believe that vanguard could counter that pretty well with a well timed reflect but seeing as it's not noobs we're talking about here the spell block would most likely go down just before the attacks are released effectively stopping that counter. What I was saying above is true for gunner, you cannot disagree with me that the damage on his jump is too high for being a LARGE aoe interrupt stun or that his spell block is way too quick for anyone to be able to stop casting purely by reaction.

Johou: You say it yourself, you have been playing this comp for a long time there has been barely any changes to gunner for AGES but a lot of other stuff has been nerfed and buffed up and down, maybe that's why I this combo seems OP to me, because everything else has been nerfed whilst gunner and harb has stayed the same?

Also sidenote: I do not argue the fact that Johou, Gazhag and Entarion are good players, better than me even but shoving that in my face as an attempt to prove a point will not get you anywhere, write down some constructive stuff instead of trying to flame people into submission. Call me a noob all you want, I am right about what I've said and you know that.
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